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Thread: Unsubstantiated claims of racism, bigotry, and white supremacy could be costly

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    I've followed this so good for them.

    Blacks (women, gays, elders, people with buck teeth) shouldn't get a pass on bad behavior.

    College students of all flavors already steal at higher rates than locals so the cost of this isn't insignificant to business owners but being tagged as racist or whatever for objecting to it is just wrong.

    The outrage mobs that mobilized after this are even worse.

    Not one of these mob members ever thought about how they would frame this crime if their Mom had a store and had prep school kids ripping off beer or cosmetics.
    "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

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    Legal Insurrection has been doing a good job of following this. I hope they get hit with the $33 million max. I don't think $11 million will do it.
    Last edited by Newman; Saturday, June 8th, 2019 at 7:03 PM.
    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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    Oh-oh! Oberlin College’s insurance company says their policy doesn’t cover the huge verdict against it
    The insurer that covers Oberlin College for liability, Lexington Insurance Company, filed documents with court last month indicating that its umbrella liability policy would not cover costs of any judgment for the plaintiffs. That means that if, after the appeals process has run its course, the plaintiffs move to collect the $11 million a jury just awarded them (plus whatever punitive damages – up to $22 more – are awarded next week), Lexington likely won’t pay and Oberlin would have to sue for reimbursement.
    We know this thanks to the research of the Legal Insurrection Foundation, which looked at the court filings, and LI’s founder, William A. Jacobson who explains them.
    Whatever the legal outcome, Oberlin has a mess on its hands and its trustees must begin planning for possible need to cough up millions of dollars. It is also in line for more big legal bills at a time of cutbacks. The administrators they hired have screwed up royally by advancing political correctness and caving in to the student SJWs, and the institutional damage is well beyond the pending financial contingency.
    Quote Originally Posted by bandersnatch45 View Post
    .
    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    I've followed this so good for them.

    Blacks (women, gays, elders, people with buck teeth) shouldn't get a pass on bad behavior.

    College students of all flavors already steal at higher rates than locals so the cost of this isn't insignificant to business owners but being tagged as racist or whatever for objecting to it is just wrong.

    The outrage mobs that mobilized after this are even worse.

    Not one of these mob members ever thought about how they would frame this crime if their Mom had a store and had prep school kids ripping off beer or cosmetics.
    When I was a young manager with a large retail chain (now defunct, AFAIK), I had a major run-in with our store security people over this issue. They would literally announce a (coded) alert over the PA when Indian (dots, not feathers) or Hispanic shoppers entered the store, to tell the people working the floor to watch out for shoplifting. Meanwhile, students from the fraternities at The Citadel and some of the local private high school were stealing anything not nailed down, for fun and/or part of the initiation nonsense.

    Most shoplifters are kids, all colors, all socioeconomic classes. There are also pros, who shoplift at one store in a chain and return items to a different store for cash. They often work state borders. They're also often junkies. Whoever they are, they cost the business money, which in turn costs US money. A Walgreen's in a high-loss neighborhood charges more for the same items than one in a low-loss neighborhood, and it's usually the first one that serves people who can ill afford the higher prices, so shoplifting disproportionately hurts poor people.

    When you see daily what shoplifters steal, you realize that these are not Jean Valjeans, stealing bread for their starving families or medicine for their sick kids. They're punks.
    No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This offer VALID in 35 34 33 32 31 26 20 17 15 14 13 ALL 50 states.

    The new 13 original states to stand up for freedom: CA, CT, IA, MA, DE, MN, NH, NY, RI, VT, ME, MD, NJ (plus DC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    When I was a young manager with a large retail chain (now defunct, AFAIK), I had a major run-in with our store security people over this issue. They would literally announce a (coded) alert over the PA when Indian (dots, not feathers) or Hispanic shoppers entered the store, to tell the people working the floor to watch out for shoplifting. Meanwhile, students from the fraternities at The Citadel and some of the local private high school were stealing anything not nailed down, for fun and/or part of the initiation nonsense.

    Most shoplifters are kids, all colors, all socioeconomic classes. There are also pros, who shoplift at one store in a chain and return items to a different store for cash. They often work state borders. They're also often junkies. Whoever they are, they cost the business money, which in turn costs US money. A Walgreen's in a high-loss neighborhood charges more for the same items than one in a low-loss neighborhood, and it's usually the first one that serves people who can ill afford the higher prices, so shoplifting disproportionately hurts poor people.

    When you see daily what shoplifters steal, you realize that these are not Jean Valjeans, stealing bread for their starving families or medicine for their sick kids. They're punks.
    And you can bet your bippy students at Oberlin College, where tuition ($55k) plus room & board come to over $71 thousand, don't need to steal donuts from the local bakery.

    Meanwhile, Clarice Feldman leads with this story in her column today (Arrogant Conceit and Pratfalls), linking it to Trump's foreign policy experience this week. Feldman begins:
    The Greeks used the word “hubris” to describe excessive arrogance and conceit. And they were wise to the fact that it leads to downfalls. Any doubt about that was surely erased by the week’s news where an Ohio jury and an incredibly hardworking, well-organized strategist -- the President -- put some arrogant prima donnas in their place.
    She pauses to tip her hat to Legal Insurrection,
    If you want to follow a legal battle by someone who knows what he’s talking about, you could not do better than reading Legal Insurrection, William Jacobson’s website.
    and writes:
    Perhaps, for those of us who were young once, a foolish action by college students caught up in the social welfare nonsense is understandable, but more is expected of the presumed adults running such places. Instead, Oberlin still arrogantly denies any responsibility, Raimondo has not been disciplined, and to add further insult, the school put on the stand an “expert” who offered up a ridiculously low sum ($35 thousand dollars) for the loss Gibson’s sustained.

    The jury saw it otherwise.
    It’s foolish to think that this case impacts only Oberlin. Insurance companies are not as stupid as the Oberlin administrators and surely are reviewing the fees they charge colleges and universities for tortious liability claims. Every one of them will pay more. Will this come out of the payroll of the very bloated administrative salaries they are paying? Not unless trustees finally get off their duffs and do their job of fiscal and policy oversight. I do not see Oberlin long surviving this and that’s as it should be. The staff may have cushy, protected jobs but people like Gibson do not.
    This is one of the rare times I beg to differ with Ms Feldman. Oberlin has an endowment of almost $880 million (in 2017, US News), so I don't see "Oberlin long surviving this" as an issue. And they've got plenty of wacky alums like Ben Cohen (of Ben & Jerry's) who could pony up $33 million worth of virtue signaling in a heartbeat.

    But I do expect Oberlin to take a black eye, and I hope Ms Feldman is correct that other colleges (and insurance companies) will take note.
    Last edited by Newman; Sunday, June 9th, 2019 at 6:21 AM.
    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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    Shoplifting in the USA is seldom about "needing" anything. It's just wanting.

    I mean, when is the last time you heard about somebody stealing milk or potatoes or beans?

    These "kids" didn't need any brownies or cream horns, they just wanted the stuff and believed (almost correctly) that being darker would allow them to steal with impunity as I assume they did in their own neighborhoods at home.

    Just kidding. The East and South Asian store owners would have prosecuted them and any Hispanic store owners would have had them beaten senseless and uploaded it to worldstar hip hop.

    They just thought they could rip off a smallish town family-owned business with a small profit margin.

    These were entitled kids who believed their skin tone gave them immunity and the college also believed that.
    "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

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    Oberlin College hit with maximum PUNITIVE DAMAGES (capped at $22 million by law) in Gibson’s Bakery case
    Daniel McGraw, our reporter in the courtroom, reports that in addition to the $11.2 million compensatory damages awarded last Friday, the jury awarded a total of $33 million in punitive damages, which will probably be reduced by the court to $22 million because of the state law cap at twice compensatory (it’s not an absolute cap, but probably will apply here). That brings the total damages to $33 million. We will have the breakdown soon. The jury also awarded attorney’s fees, to be determined by the judge.
    William Jacobson chimes in:
    “Oberlin College tried to sacrifice a beloved 5th-generation bakery, its owners, and its employees, at the altar of political correctness in order to appease the campus ‘social justice warfare’ mob. The jury sent a clear message that the truth matters, and so do the reputations and lives of people targeted by false accusations, particularly when those false accusations are spread by powerful institutions. Throughout the trial the Oberlin College defense was tone-deaf and demeaning towards the bakery and its owners, calling the bakery nearly worthless. The jury sent a message that all lives matter, including the lives of ordinary working people who did nothing wrong other than stop people from stealing.”
    One of the Gibson lawyers:
    “Why is the country watching you. Because the country agrees that what happened to the Gibsons should not happen to anyone, but could happen to everyone.”

    ” Colleges are watching us and you. Because they all know the way colleges are run will be affected, and by your decisions, they will be”
    One of the college's lawyers:
    “We cannot change the past, we can learn from it.”

    “This will impact people who had nothing to do with the protest …, it also means less students who are not able to afford a college education will be able to do so.”
    I don't know where that last lawyer went to school, but it's possible fewer people will be hiring them in the near future. Perhaps paying them less, too.

    I'm satisfied with the result, but I find the statement of the college's lawyer very unfortunate. It plants a grudge, which may stall the healing, and like the letter the college sent out following the original verdict, is tone-deaf to any culpability as determined by the jury. Its pleas of poverty are annoying. Oberlin College, to reiterate, has an endowment of about $800 million.
    Last edited by Newman; Thursday, June 13th, 2019 at 5:47 PM.
    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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    $44 million plus? Many headlines today feature that number, such as this WSJ piece:

    Ohio Bakery Awarded $44 Million in Libel Case Against Oberlin College
    An Ohio bakery that sued Oberlin College for libel over accusations of racism has been awarded a total of $44 million in damages.

    The family behind Gibson’s Bakery sued the liberal arts institution and a school administrator after the Oberlin bakery was the focus of protests following the arrest of three black students involved in a November 2016 shoplifting incident. The three students later pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges.

    A Lorain County jury on Thursday awarded Gibson’s Bakery $33.2 million in punitive damages. Last week, that same jury awarded the bakery, which was founded in Oberlin in 1905, $11 million in compensatory damages.

    The actual punitive damages awarded in the case will likely be reduced to around $22 million because Ohio law caps punitive damages to no more than twice that of compensatory damages.
    As gratifying as the enhanced penalty is, considering the conduct of the College and its continuing denial of responsibility, none of the reports I scanned explained the last sentence of the WSJ excerpt just above, that "Ohio law" caps punitive damages, and the final amount is "likely" to be reduced. Only "likely"? What would effect an exception?

    Legal Insurrection, which has really owned this story, hasn't jumped up to that higher number, but also left wiggle room in the post just above this one: "it’s not an absolute cap, but probably will apply here."

    "Probably"? "Likely"?

    I watched the interview with Jacobson on Tucker Carlson, linked at Legal Insurrection. Tucker himself headlined the $44 million number.



    In his preamble Carlson reviewed some details of the experience of the Gibson family:

    College administrators tried to put the bakery out of business. They canceled its long-standing contract with the college. It nearly worked, by the way. The Gibsons took no salary for two years. They laid off most of their staff. They almost shut down the business.

    Oberlin then used their suffering for leverage for negotiations. The college offered to reinstate the lucrative if Gibson's would drop charges against the shoplifters. The Gibsons refused. Instead they fought back, and in the end they won.

    "A rare and unequivocal victory," I agree, but to me the bottom line is still a bit of a question mark.

    Tucker: What do you think, having watched this from the first day to the last, what do you think the message the jury was sending was?

    WAJ: I think that the message the jury was sending is that all lives matter, frankly. That the lives of the Bakery, the lives of people who get up at 3 in the morning to cook the baked goods that the students eat in the dining halls matter just as much as anybody else. And the truth matters. Because these are people, as you’ve pointed out, who did nothing wrong. They literally were just minding their business that morning [sic – it was late afternoon] when they called the police on some shoplifters.

    And because of the crazed social justice, so-called social justice movement on our campuses, they were immediately designated an oppressor, in part because of their skin color, in part because they’re the owner of a business, and they were put into a pigeonhole of someone who must be racist, who must have engaged in racial profiling. And nobody seemed to actually care about the facts, that these are students actually did shoplift. And I think that’s what’s so outrageous about it.

    I think you noted it in your opening, that these are just ordinary people. These are not people who are engaged in the political process. They didn’t put themselves out into the arena. This is not like the other social media mobs we’ve heard about, where someone sends out a tweet, or post something on Facebook, and all of the sudden there’s a mob against them. That’s bad enough. These are literally people who got up probably at 3 in [the morning] that morning, and did absolutely nothing wrong. But that campus fervor, and that campus zeal to express some sort of outrage at the system, visited them. And I think that’s the thing that’s so chilling here.

    * * *

    … The important thing here is that, I don’t think Oberlin College got the message. In their closing statement to the jury as to why the shouldn’t get punitive damages, the Oberlin College attorney said, we’ve gotten the message, you sent a message loud and clear. I don’t think for a second Oberlin College has gotten the message. Just today, the president sent out an all-campus email saying they’re going to continue to fight this, and they believe they did nothing wrong. So I think this is really an outrageous circumstance.

    Let’s remember, this is a 5th-generation bakery. These are the people who get up at 3 and 4 in the morning [to go to work] when Oberlin students are just getting home.

    And I think that’s the outrageous think about this. This can happen to anybody, it’s not just a campus phenomenon.
    Part of the continuing problem is that the individuals at the top pay no penalty. (Lefties rail against the 1%, I rail against school administrators.) The president of Oberlin College at the time of these offenses has moved up to be president of Pace University. The odious and arrogant Ms Raimondo is still there.

    But if there's little hope for much, there's a little hope for something.
    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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    The math problem involves the fact that Oberlin must also pay all the Gibson's Bakery legal fees which are estimated at $10 million now.

    So, compensatory damages + punitive damages + legal fees = $44 million by the time all the appeals and everything is over and assuming there are no reductions along the way.

    I dunno if there will be any and Oberlin would be smart to just eat this expense and learn from it. No matter what happens, it's likely that some parents will simply tell their kids to look elsewhere and Gen Z is more sensitive to student debt than their older siblings were so some who would have attended and believed the debt to be worth it might look elsewhere.

    This means a smaller class next fall and most colleges followed the travails of Mizzou after their big scandal and the subsequent domino effect on class sizes and donors. In this case, it might be worse since the college is perceived as a bully disrupting a little business with a long history.

    If any damages are reduced on appeal, Oberlin still won't win since the media perception will be that elite courts naturally reduced damages in favor of an elite college despite the will of the little people who actually have to live downstream from the toxic behavior of the college.

    They need to think about damage control. They can pay this but a chronic decline in class sizes and donations is something else.
    "Alexa, slaughter the fatted calf."

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