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Thread: Is Pedophilia Okay if You’re “Born That Way”?

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    Is Pedophilia Okay if You’re “Born That Way”?

    We have heard the claims from the homosexual crowd that since they are "born that way" that they should be able to live as they please. As this article points out, other deviancies are on the way to being considered "normal".

    So, why can't any human condition be considered normal?

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/cultur...-born-that-way

    “Now, many experts view it as a sexual orientation as immutable as heterosexuality ... a deep-rooted predisposition ... that becomes clear during puberty and does not change.”

    The above idea was expressed with respect to homosexuality decades ago and since has become left-wing dogma. The thinking is that if someone was “born that way,” if the behavior is “natural” for him and he didn’t choose his feelings, how could it be wrong?

    Yet the opening quoted line wasn’t penned decades ago — it’s only two years old. And homosexuality wasn’t the focus.

    It was about pedophilia.

    Here is the complete quotation, as published by the Los Angeles Times on Jan. 14, 2013:

    Like many forms of sexual deviance, pedophilia once was thought to stem from psychological influences early in life. Now, many experts view it as a sexual orientation as immutable as heterosexuality or homosexuality. It is a deep-rooted predisposition — limited almost entirely to men — that becomes clear during puberty and does not change.

    Should we view this as just a clinical analysis, without considering what may be implied and certainly will be inferred? After all, if the “inborn” argument is valid, then it’s silly to think it doesn’t apply to other “innate” urges and inclinations. If it’s not valid, however, then it’s equally silly to accept it with respect to any supposedly innate inclination, such as homosexuality. Let’s delve into it.


    Rest at link.

    Mark

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    Sociopaths are "born that way." We don't tolerate sociopathic behavior that physically harms others, although everyone knows by now that sociopaths who don't do physical harm often make excellent CEOS, officers and the like. Them we tolerate. It is not the status of being a sociopath that causes someone to be locked up; it is harmful conduct.

    If there were a pedophile who engaged in no harmful behavior, how would anyone know he was a pedophile? Once he engages in behavior harmful to another person, in this case a child, society punishes the harmful conduct.

    You conflate two very different issues with regard to homosexuality. We don't claim that because we were born gay, we "should be able to live as we please." We contend that we should be able to live our lives in equal terms to non-gay people because we are human beings and citizens entitled to the same rights as other human beings and citizens. Being gay, living with and loving the people we love is a consensual adult behavior that harms no one. There is no rational reason to deny us equal rights.

    The assertion that we are "born this way" is an entirely different matter. THAT arose in response to the ignorant claim that homosexuality is a choice, a "lifestyle," equivalent to the choice to be a ski bum instead of an accountant, or Republican instead of a Democrat. Oddly enough, those who contend that homosexuality is a choice can never identify the moment at which they chose to become heterosexual (unless you're dealing with one of those self-hating gay people who claim to have been cured and later get photographed sneaking in the back entrance of a gay bar to get some loving on the down low). And they frequently base their claim that only heterosexuality is "natural" on religion...which is CLEARLY a lifestyle choice, since people have converted from one religion to another since time immemorial. In fact, many of the "born-agains" who are the most anti-gay are converts from other religions, so logically, they really can't dispute that religious belief and affiliation really ARE choices. And who are they to say their lifestyle choice is any more natural than another?

    If you're going to try to demolish another person's argument, it's best to understand first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    Sociopaths are "born that way." We don't tolerate sociopathic behavior that physically harms others, although everyone knows by now that sociopaths who don't do physical harm often make excellent CEOS, officers and the like. Them we tolerate. It is not the status of being a sociopath that causes someone to be locked up; it is harmful conduct.

    If there were a pedophile who engaged in no harmful behavior, how would anyone know he was a pedophile? Once he engages in behavior harmful to another person, in this case a child, society punishes the harmful conduct.

    You conflate two very different issues with regard to homosexuality. We don't claim that because we were born gay, we "should be able to live as we please." We contend that we should be able to live our lives in equal terms to non-gay people because we are human beings and citizens entitled to the same rights as other human beings and citizens. Being gay, living with and loving the people we love is a consensual adult behavior that harms no one. There is no rational reason to deny us equal rights.

    The assertion that we are "born this way" is an entirely different matter. THAT arose in response to the ignorant claim that homosexuality is a choice, a "lifestyle," equivalent to the choice to be a ski bum instead of an accountant, or Republican instead of a Democrat. Oddly enough, those who contend that homosexuality is a choice can never identify the moment at which they chose to become heterosexual (unless you're dealing with one of those self-hating gay people who claim to have been cured and later get photographed sneaking in the back entrance of a gay bar to get some loving on the down low). And they frequently base their claim that only heterosexuality is "natural" on religion...which is CLEARLY a lifestyle choice, since people have converted from one religion to another since time immemorial. In fact, many of the "born-agains" who are the most anti-gay are converts from other religions, so logically, they really can't dispute that religious belief and affiliation really ARE choices. And who are they to say their lifestyle choice is any more natural than another?

    If you're going to try to demolish another person's argument, it's best to understand first.
    Every moral code in society is a social construct. Every. Single. One. And our laws are based on our code of morality, or what we think is right and wrong.

    When the "age of consent" argument is used, that is also an arbitrary number that society sets to justify its moral code. In effect, anyone who would deny a 15 year old the right to have sex is just as bigoted as a person who would deny a homosexual his rights. After all, who are we to say when a person should be able to consent? If adulthood is the issue, when does it start? In my own lifetime, adulthood went from being 21 to being 18. And science indicates that a human brain isn't fully mature until age 26. How can we let people younger than 26 consent, when science tells us our brains are not fully developed?

    Could pedophilia be legalized? Why not? If public opinion concerning gays can do a 180 if a few decades, I figure people can be conditioned to accept anything. But, that starts with "normalizing" pedophilia, the same playbook that was used for homosexuality.

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    Every moral code in society is a social construct. Every. Single. One. And our laws are based on our code of morality, or what we think is right and wrong.

    When the "age of consent" argument is used, that is also an arbitrary number that society sets to justify its moral code. In effect, anyone who would deny a 15 year old the right to have sex is just as bigoted as a person who would deny a homosexual his rights. After all, who are we to say when a person should be able to consent? If adulthood is the issue, when does it start? In my own lifetime, adulthood went from being 21 to being 18. And science indicates that a human brain isn't fully mature until age 26. How can we let people younger than 26 consent, when science tells us our brains are not fully developed?

    Could pedophilia be legalized? Why not? If public opinion concerning gays can do a 180 if a few decades, I figure people can be conditioned to accept anything. But, that starts with "normalizing" pedophilia, the same playbook that was used for homosexuality.

    Mark
    If two gay adults want to have sex, then I have no problem with it. They're old enough to know.

    The mind of children and teenagers are not made the same as adults. Having sex with them is an abuse of the mind and body. I do think there should be a harsher penalty for having sex with children than teenagers because teenagers are getting older and more developed. In the end, the adult really should know better though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    If two gay adults want to have sex, then I have no problem with it. They're old enough to know.

    The mind of children and teenagers are not made the same as adults. Having sex with them is an abuse of the mind and body. I do think there should be a harsher penalty for having sex with children than teenagers because teenagers are getting older and more developed. In the end, the adult really should know better though.
    What you "think" matters not. You are doing what everyone does by pushing your own moral code on the masses.

    Like me, you are a bigot. You just have a shade laxer moral code than I do.

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    What you "think" matters not. You are doing what everyone does by pushing your own moral code on the masses.

    Like me, you are a bigot. You just have a shade laxer moral code than I do.

    Mark
    I admit it. I am a bigot against child molesters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    If there were a pedophile who engaged in no harmful behavior, how would anyone know he was a pedophile? Once he engages in behavior harmful to another person, in this case a child, society punishes the harmful conduct.
    This is exactly right, and why pedophilia has been so hard for science to grasp. The extreme stigma means there's no way to know exactly who is predisposed to this or similar feelings.

    The worst part of it is that because it's so taboo in our society, therapists are often ill at ease in dealing with self-admitted pedophiles. I don't remember where I read it, but there was a story about this problem not too long ago. A young man of about 17 or 18 came to grips with his attraction to prepubescent girls and rather than stuff that deep inside and repress his feelings, he confessed to his mother and asked for therapy. Unfortunately the therapist his mother chose was of no help because she was not trained to deal with such an issue, and it led to all kinds of difficulties for a kid who thought he was doing to right thing in seeking help.

    It's so taboo that even being a therapist interested in the subject is considered bad. Which is terrible, but welcome to America.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    Every moral code in society is a social construct. Every. Single. One. And our laws are based on our code of morality, or what we think is right and wrong.
    And morals change over time, too. It was once thought pure and good to arrange marriages and burn "witches" to death on a stake. It was good and moral to believe that races shouldn't intermarry and that women were property.

    There's nothing wrong with changing morals over time. We have learned and become enlightened on some subjects. I doubt we'll ever cross the barrier to where we as a society think it's OK to endanger a child, sexually, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    Could pedophilia be legalized? Why not? If public opinion concerning gays can do a 180 if a few decades, I figure people can be conditioned to accept anything. But, that starts with "normalizing" pedophilia, the same playbook that was used for homosexuality.
    Could murder be legalized, or rape?

    You're equating gay people with pedophiles when the two constructs could not be farther apart. Or further apart. Whichever is correct.

    We should "normalize" pedophilia inasmuch that it ceases to be a taboo within psychotherapy circles so that effective treatments may be administered in a non-cruel fashion. It should be normal enough that people with uncontrollable feelings towards children should feel safe enough to seek appropriate help without being murdered in the streets. Beyond that, the protection of people who are too young and too innocent to consent should continue to be the same priority it is today.

    At some point, we also need to come to grips with the fact that pedophilia is not the only chronophilia (attraction based on age) out there. It's poorly understood but some people are not attracted to little kids, but early adolescents. That's hebephilia. Then there's people attracted to post-pubescent but still teenaged individuals. That's ephebophilia. I bet there's a few people on here who unknowingly fall into that category.

    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    Like me, you are a bigot. You just have a shade laxer moral code than I do.
    Yours is a moral code of prohibition, isolation and shaming. Hers is not. Therefore hers is not bigotry.
    Last edited by Tom Servo; Tuesday, February 3rd, 2015 at 6:01 AM. Reason: Got my philias mixed up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I admit it. I am a bigot against child molesters.
    You "believe" they are child molesters.

    Easy to make your beliefs back up your intolerance.


    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    This is exactly right, and why pedophilia has been so hard for science to grasp. The extreme stigma means there's no way to know exactly who is predisposed to this or similar feelings.

    The worst part of it is that because it's so taboo in our society, therapists are often ill at ease in dealing with self-admitted pedophiles. I don't remember where I read it, but there was a story about this problem not too long ago. A young man of about 17 or 18 came to grips with his attraction to prepubescent girls and rather than stuff that deep inside and repress his feelings, he confessed to his mother and asked for therapy. Unfortunately the therapist his mother chose was of no help because she was not trained to deal with such an issue, and it led to all kinds of difficulties for a kid who thought he was doing to right thing in seeking help.

    It's so taboo that even being a therapist interested in the subject is considered bad. Which is terrible, but welcome to America.



    And morals change over time, too. It was once thought pure and good to arrange marriages and burn "witches" to death on a stake. It was good and moral to believe that races shouldn't intermarry and that women were property.

    There's nothing wrong with changing morals over time. We have learned and become enlightened on some subjects. I doubt we'll ever cross the barrier to where we as a society think it's OK to endanger a child, sexually, though.
    Again, your perception is endangerment, but others can "help us conclude" that it is not. And if it isn't...


    Could murder be legalized, or rape?

    You're equating gay people with pedophiles when the two constructs could not be farther apart. Or further apart. Whichever is correct.
    Wrong. Murder and rape are bodily harm. Consensual sex with a child does not harm the child, according to some. Look at what we do now with kids. We dress little girls like tramps, and have "beauty pageants" for them that are pretty disgusting sometimes.

    We should "normalize" pedophilia inasmuch that it ceases to be a taboo within psychotherapy circles so that effective treatments may be administered in a non-cruel fashion. It should be normal enough that people with uncontrollable feelings towards children should feel safe enough to seek appropriate help without being murdered in the streets. Beyond that, the protection of people who are too young and too innocent to consent should continue to be the same priority it is today.

    At some point, we also need to come to grips with the fact that pedophilia is not the only chronophilia (attraction based on age) out there. It's poorly understood but some people are not attracted to little kids, but early adolescents. That's hebephilia. Then there's people attracted to post-pubescent but still teenaged individuals. That's ephebophilia. I bet there's a few people on here who unknowingly fall into that category.
    Normalization will mean acceptance of a condition. Good luck with that. People are sheep, they will fall into place.



    Yours is a moral code of prohibition, isolation and shaming. Hers is not. Therefore hers is not bigotry
    .
    Hers is as well. Unless you figure she doesn't want to prohibit, isolate, and shame pedophilia.

    Mark

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    It's like this. I don't "get" transsexualism, fetishism, polygamy, B&D, or people who enjoy anal sex. Call me vanilla, I won't argue. But I don't care if a M-t-F dominatrix wants to have (private) anal sex with her 4 husbands, because IT ONLY INVOLVES THEM. It does me no harm whatsoever. Their existence in the world and even their public acknowledgement of their polygamous marriage offends me no more than the relationships of some of my white-trash neighbors back in Florida. I don't want to live their lives, but they do me no harm.

    I oppose prosecution for thought crimes. If a pedophile has a computer right full of animated kiddie porn, as long as he keeps it to his disgusting self, leave him alone. When he's jerking off to that, he's not hurting real kids. But catch him with a real child or trying to lure one, and I'd lock his ass up and throw away the key.
    No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This offer VALID in 35 34 33 32 31 26 20 17 15 14 13 ALL 50 states.

    The new 13 original states to stand up for freedom: CA, CT, IA, MA, DE, MN, NH, NY, RI, VT, ME, MD, NJ (plus DC).

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