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Thread: Driven to the "Fringe".

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillygirl View Post
    Yes, some people in a county GOP group are very unwelcoming to a particular Muslim. You caught them.
    No. Not a particular Muslim. A particular member. Because he's a Muslim. I'm not sure how you conclude that this sort of disfavor wouldn't extend to any other member who's a Muslim.

    On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    -H. L. Mencken

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm dePlume View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm dePlume View Post
    No. Not a particular Muslim. A particular member. Because he's a Muslim. I'm not sure how you conclude that this sort of disfavor wouldn't extend to any other member who's a Muslim.
    You may have missed the lede here, Norm. I just noticed the dateline on your cite here, Jan. 9, so a quick look ahead to see how his recall vote turned out was gratifying:

    Tarrant County GOP’s vice-chairman survives recall vote over his religion
    Jan. 10, 2019.
    County party officials overwhelmingly rejected attempts to remove Shahid Shafi because he's Muslim. The 139-49 vote in his favor came after the state's top Republican officials denounced the failed move to oust the trauma surgeon.
    (Added)

    Shahid Shafi will retain his role as vice-chairman of the Tarrant County Republican Party despite a push from a small faction of precinct chairs to remove him from his post because he's Muslim.

    Shafi, a trauma surgeon and Southlake City Council member, said after the vote that the last several months had been hard on him and his family. But he said he holds no animosity toward people who backed the failed motion to recall him — and that he was proud to be an American and a Republican.

    "As an immigrant to this great country, I am honored and privileged to receive the support of my fellow Republicans," Shafi told members of the press late Thursday. "We need to learn to trust each other so we can create a more perfect union everyday."

    Shafi came to the U.S. in 1990 and became a naturalized citizen in 2009. The attacks on his religion, however, came shortly after Darl Easton, the Tarrant County GOP Chair, appointed Shafi to a leadership role within the county party in July. The formal motion to oust him failed in a 49-139 vote, said county party spokesman Mike Snyder.
    Much of the material in this report is a repeat of stuff in your first cite, but the comic relief ending is new:
    Tripp Bryant, a State Republican Executive Committee representative from Senate District 22 that includes part of Tarrant, said it was “appalling” members of the Tarrant County party were being divisive over someone's religion months after Republicans in the area made nail-biters of races that had once been safe wins. He noted that Republicans U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz and U.S. Rep. Ron Wright lost in the county.

    “In my personal opinion, they need to pull their heads out of their fourth point of contact and they need to focus on winning elections and stop pointing the finger at Muslims," Bryant said.

    John Seidenstein, a precinct chair nominee, called Thursday's motion "bullshit."

    "I'm a Jewish precinct chair," Seidenstein said, "does this mean I'm next?"

    Legvold, meanwhile, complained that Shafi's opponents had been vilified.

    "They’ve said nothing but horrible things about us — that we’re bigots and Islamophobes and white supremacists — when we’re just patriots who care for our country," she said.
    To me the news is he's a small government Republican. From your original cite:
    Shahid Shafi identifies as a Republican because of his firm belief in small government, lower taxes and secure borders.
    [S]everal prominent Texas Republicans have rallied behind Shafi leading up to Thursday’s vote — a list that includes U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz, Texas Land Commissioner George P. Bush and former House Speaker Joe Straus. As news of the motion to remove Shafi garnered national attention, the state party’s GOP executive committee passed a non-discrimination resolution that affirms and supports “all Americans’ right to practice their religion … and recognizes the contributions of Republicans of every faith who advance conservative policies and ideals.”
    Shafi, who came to the U.S. in 1990 and became a naturalized citizen in 2009, has repeatedly defended himself against the attacks on his religion. In an open letter, he wrote that he believes “much of the hate against Muslims is driven by a fear of terrorism.”

    “Here are the facts. I have never had any association with the Muslim Brotherhood nor [the Council on American-Islamic Relations] nor any terrorist organization,” he wrote. “I believe that the laws of our nation are our Constitution and the laws passed by our elected legislatures — I have never promoted any form of Sharia Law. I fully support and believe in American Laws for American Courts.

    “I am honored to be an American and a Republican,” he concluded.
    Author Jeremy Suri at UT goes straight for the KKK kard:
    Jeremi Suri, a professor of public affairs and history at the University of Texas at Austin, said claims that Shafi’s religion impede his ability to work with the Republican party are “completely unfounded.” He compared the attacks against the surgeon to rhetoric the Ku Klux Klan used in the early 20th century against Catholics and Jews running for political office.
    I remember the attacks on Catholics, suspecting that JFK, for example, would be beholden to the Pope. I don't see the same reasoning in the KKK's prejudice against Jews (or blacks). They were just the KKK; getting their hate on was what they did.

    Anyway, America's a big place. I shouldn't be surprised that a small group of political revanchists (the County flipped to O'Rourke last time out) would make a spectacle of themselves.

    But I'm happy about the support the GOP showed Shafi, happy about the way it turned out, and happy to see he's a Republican.
    Shafi, a trauma surgeon and Southlake City Council member, said after the vote that the last several months had been hard on him and his family. But he said he holds no animosity toward people who backed the failed motion to recall him — and that he was proud to be an American and a Republican.
    Last edited by Newman; Monday, August 12th, 2019 at 5:12 AM.
    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all.... We really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” —Saikat Chakrabarti, then AOC's Chief of Staff, explaining the Green New Deal for the hard of hearing.

    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    What model?
    https://www.mei.edu/publications/soc...morality-islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    Few religions are really a model for democracy. In fact, I can't think of one. Some have more or less adapted to it.
    While true, Islam and government are inextricably linked according to the teachings of the Koran and especially as implemented by Muslim-controlled nations.
    "What truly matters is not which party controls our government, but whether our government is controlled by the people. January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer."

    link

    Time will tell.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I wasn't being cryptic (though it's something I aspire to). I meant that Omar and Tlaib have the excuse of being born Muslim.
    Ah, thank you. My point still stand even with converts - Islam is more compatible with left of center politics here.
    "What truly matters is not which party controls our government, but whether our government is controlled by the people. January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer."

    link

    Time will tell.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    Ah, thank you. My point still stand even with converts - Islam is more compatible with left of center politics here.
    Maybe. It's arguable.

    But the reverse is certainly true.

    The left is more compatible with Islam politics than the right.

    It's a little like "open borders" in this regard. Republics oppose open borders, and almost all Democrats say the same. Certainly their Party platform does. But as a practical matter the Democrats can't bring themselves to enforce border restrictions of any sort.

    Same with antisemitism. Both the Dems and the GOP oppose antisemitism, but as a practical matter the Democrats can't pass a resolution condemning antisemitism (except insofar as they oppose badness in all things)

    And on it goes.
    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all.... We really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” —Saikat Chakrabarti, then AOC's Chief of Staff, explaining the Green New Deal for the hard of hearing.

    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott View Post
    Notice the elected officials in this country that are Muslim. They are all Democrats. They aren't just Democrats that have conservative views, they are full blown leftists - Keith Ellison, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, etc.

    Islam is far more compatible to left of center US politics than right of center because it's so focused on control and state involvement in all affairs. It also doesn't help that most recent political movements in Muslim countries are Marxist so it's the lingua fraca of activism for anyone but hardline monarchists.

    Also, so much of the controlling nature of Islam appeals to leftists because it's so similar to their own quasi-religious devotion to their political views and as long as they can remain "enlightened" and "woke" they can excuse certain groups because they are "underprivileged." That's why atrocities like executions just for being gay and female genital mutilation are tolerated by leftists as long as those are done "over there" and only by subordinate cultures. It's why black people here are not heavily criticized for being very very anti-gay - "well it's their culture...."
    And yet the following people better not be themselves in an Islamic country.

    LGBT.

    Women (especially feminists).


    The following ideas are leftist: Big government (not that we have a small one now, far from it), staying out of Middle East affairs and other countries for that matter, and I'm sorry to say anti-Israel.

    The following ideas are conservative. While most conservatives in the Unites States would NEVER take it as far as the middle east, the truth is they are conservative: Anti-LGBT, anti-feminist (cover your face, woman!), anti-education (conservatives here always bashing the education system as being leftist and brainwashing while over there they just don't want people educated), anti-science (say what you want, but conservative ideas almost always fall on the wrong side of science), relying on God even when it makes no sense (He's on our side, not the US's).

    On another note, am I the only one noticing that the "squad" is sort of staying out of the gun control argument?


    on edit: I'm sorry if some of these ideas come off as offensive. I like most of you all as people. The truth is none of us would be what we are if we saw the other ideology as just as good or better than ours.
    Last edited by Lanie; Monday, August 12th, 2019 at 6:47 AM.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    The following ideas are leftist: Big government (not that we have a small one now, far from it), staying out of Middle East affairs and other countries for that matter, and I'm sorry to say anti-Israel.
    My recollection is that Democrats, particularly Hillary, always supported military intervention over there. Maybe Democrats aren't leftists? And they used to be pro-Israel, or do you think they were bluffing?

    Big government, too, imo. The Dems are more open about it, painting Big Gov as a champion for the downtrodden, but Big Pols of both Parties (Big Bureaucrats and Lobbyists, too) love Big. Big Celebrities feed your ego; Big Business makes policy-writing painless, and maybe even rewarding; and Big Government enhances one's power. Insurgencies, tea party, OWS, Trump or socialists, always feature the small & "powerless" against the Big (the "high and mighty").

    The following ideas are conservative. While most conservatives in the Unites States would NEVER take it as far as the middle east, the truth is they are conservative: Anti-LGBT, anti-feminist (cover your face, woman!), anti-education (conservatives here always bashing the education system as being leftist and brainwashing while over there they just don't want people educated), anti-science (say what you want, but conservative ideas almost always fall on the wrong side of science), relying on God even when it makes no sense (He's on our side, not the US's).

    On another note, am I the only one noticing that the "squad" is sort of staying out of the gun control argument?


    on edit: I'm sorry if some of these ideas come off as offensive. I like most of you all as people. The truth is none of us would be what we are if we saw the other ideology as just as good or better than ours.
    I'd argue with your "conservative" details, too. Mostly about how the issue is framed.

    Take the God thing, for example. I don't think there's ever a wrong time ("when") or wrong circumstances to rely on God. But it's treacherous to enlist God's support (God's on our side); that's putting the wrong party in charge.

    Liberalism used to represent the primacy of the individual, celebrating personal liberty and value. Conservatives ought to be about preserving the best of what we have, the foundation of our success. The classic line for me is Reagan's bit that freedom must be fought for in each generation.

    Overall, however, you can make a good case that a various times both wander pretty far from that mission.
    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all.... We really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” —Saikat Chakrabarti, then AOC's Chief of Staff, explaining the Green New Deal for the hard of hearing.

    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post
    How is there anything "leftist" about Islamic religious/cultural fanaticism? Not that I expect a cogent answer, since anyone who deviates from the Gospel According to Adam Wood is a "leftist" by your measure, but maybe someone else can help out here.
    I was actually talking about the guy in Vegas, but since you asked, Islam as a political ideology is quite Leftist. It involves the government dictating pretty much everything about how you live your life: how to dress, when to pray, how you may run your business, etc. The very opposite of conservative.
    Leftists have unquestionably demonstrated their hatred for due process, and Democrats have undeniably obstructed justice for, and thoroughly victim-shamed and smeared, Karen Monahan.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    My recollection is that Democrats, particularly Hillary, always supported military intervention over there. Maybe Democrats aren't leftists? And they used to be pro-Israel, or do you think they were bluffing?

    Big government, too, imo. The Dems are more open about it, painting Big Gov as a champion for the downtrodden, but Big Pols of both Parties (Big Bureaucrats and Lobbyists, too) love Big. Big Celebrities feed your ego; Big Business makes policy-writing painless, and maybe even rewarding; and Big Government enhances one's power. Insurgencies, tea party, OWS, Trump or socialists, always feature the small & "powerless" against the Big (the "high and mighty").

    There are Democrats and then there's the rest of the left. lol. You'll probably hear people like Bernie or AOC say "Hey, we shouldn't be over there."

    One argument that Bernie and Hilary had during the 2016 debates was whether we should be over in Syria trying to do anything about Assaad. Hilary said yes and Bernie said no. Bernie was for doing something about ISIS because they threatened to come over here, but not Assaad. Now, in 2019, Kamala Harris has criticized Tulsi Gabbard for supposedly being pro-Assaad. Some of the really far left seem to think he's framed or some dumb junk.

    And while I was protesting the Iraq war last decade, most Democrats were for it. The tide didn't turn until after Bush was elected a second time.

    I personally think we should sometimes be involved in other countries because they do eventually affect us and it's a humanitarian thing. We just need to be careful not to push our own leaders onto them and not to come up with a cure that's worse than the illness (Example: Accidently helping ISIS rise because they were Assaad's enemy).


    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    I'd argue with your "conservative" details, too. Mostly about how the issue is framed.

    Take the God thing, for example. I don't think there's ever a wrong time ("when") or wrong circumstances to rely on God. But it's treacherous to enlist God's support (God's on our side); that's putting the wrong party in charge.
    So, where I'm at, the Republican Party literally put up signs that their party was about God, country, and family. I guess we're anti-God, anti-American, and want to tear up families. That's how they often see us.


    Quote Originally Posted by Newman View Post
    Liberalism used to represent the primacy of the individual, celebrating personal liberty and value. Conservatives ought to be about preserving the best of what we have, the foundation of our success. The classic line for me is Reagan's bit that freedom must be fought for in each generation.

    Overall, however, you can make a good case that a various times both wander pretty far from that mission.

    I think conservatives and liberals often have two very different ideas about what it means to be free. I'll admit that the liberals are having trouble celebrating individual ideas lately. I don't think the Republican Party has room to talk.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    So, where I'm at, the Republican Party literally put up signs that their party was about God, country, and family. I guess we're anti-God, anti-American, and want to tear up families. That's how they often see us.
    Three large headings, I think.

    1. Anti-God: The line about prayer in school floats about, but I think it's mostly the province of very old voters. But there's no doubt secularism as an activist force is a D thing, not an R thing.
      The president of our local Democratic club is a church-going white guy, my age. An uncommon man. What I hear from my ultra-liberal Christian friends is a theology of ("Christ-like") bottomless, uncritical compassion. From the right, the high profile cases of harassment of Christian businesses like Chick-fil-A fit the "anti-God" description.
    2. Anti-American: I don't know how the trappings of patriotism came to be avoided by Democrats, but they are. They're considered corny, embarrassing, or something. Expressions of pride in country are more difficult for Democrats as sending thoughts and prayers.
    3. Anti-family: Of these three points, this is the one that most revolves around policy, not slogans. Democrats promote expanding the "safety net," free day care, more paid family leave, generally the supporting village, which Republicans see as leading to the dissolution of the two-parent home. As Larry Elder puts it, "The welfare state is an assault on families."


    I think conservatives and liberals often have two very different ideas about what it means to be free. I'll admit that the liberals are having trouble celebrating individual ideas lately. I don't think the Republican Party has room to talk.
    The GOP is a checkered beast, much like the Orange President himself. From my point of view their most redeeming feature is they're not Democrats.

    A Democratic-supporting psychologist we knew in NY said, in response to various societal stresses, "We just have to do something." This was a way of setting aside arguments about whether "something" would actually work, but I believe she thought that was a neutral, nonpartisan statement. The effort was worthwhile, a good thing, whatever the result. "Her heart was in the right place."

    I would add another point,

    4. Anti-rationality.

    But that would be snarky, a bit. I would never stoop to that sort of thing.

    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all.... We really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing.” —Saikat Chakrabarti, then AOC's Chief of Staff, explaining the Green New Deal for the hard of hearing.

    "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." —CNN's Don Lemon, showing how to stop demonizing people.

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