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Thread: "It's nothing short of a license to discriminate"?

  1. #41
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    Let's throw out a fun one here, shall we?

    Bob, the Seventh Day Adventist that has never worked a Saturday in his life and Bill the Baptist own a business together.
    Let's say they are wedding photographers.

    Bob takes Sunday pics and Bill takes Saturday since it is against their religions to work the other day.

    An Atheist couple are getting married on Saturday but Bill is in the hospital for a burst appendix that happened on Friday.
    Can the Atheist couple force Bob to take pics at the wedding?

    Case #2
    A gay couple is getting married and wants a prominent but devout local Jewish baker to bake a cake for a Saturday wedding. The baker has no issues with making the cake, but insists it be picked up 30 minutes before Shabbat as he faithfully closes at that time. This obviously changes the closing time every week.
    Everything is cool until their car breaks down and they can't make the deadline. He won't stay open and violate his faith.
    Can he be forced to wait?

    Extra Credit...
    In #1, they are the only available photographers within a 60 mile radius to take wedding pics on that weekend.

    #2
    There is another Christian bakery across the street that makes cakes, will make them a cake, but never makes wedding cakes of any kind for anyone.

    Extra, extra credit...
    The Jewish baker asks the Christian baker to hold the Gay decorated wedding cake for the late arriving customers and the Christian baker refuses. He would hold a regular cake, but not a wedding cake for anyone.

    Extra, extra, extra credit...
    He would hold a wedding cake, since he did not make it, but not a gay wedding cake.
    Last edited by gary m; Wednesday, October 11th, 2017 at 9:17 PM.
    Expose the D.C. monster for what it is
    Al Franken / Jill Stein 2020.


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  3. #42
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    Hobby Lobby sells craft paper and low-rent wedding gear. Chik-Fil-A sells a limited menu.

    You can outfit your wedding with Hobby Lobby off-the-shelf stuff and cater it with Chik-Fil-A sandwiches. Nobody cares about that.

    You can't force Hobby Lobby or Chik-Fil-A to specially design different low-rent wedding gear or different chicken sandwiches to meet your needs.

    Buy off the shelf or figure it out on your own time or go where someone else can deal with with you.

    Muslim bakeries that have refused to make wedding cakes for homosexual weddings haven't gotten in trouble. Why not?

    Plenty of people in my circle just get a cake made by the church ladies. It's damn good cake. Surely secular people have "cake people" in their circle who can bake some cakes and stack them.

  4. #43
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    And for the go to the head of the class award...

    The baker agrees to make the cake for an September wedding for a 7 pm pickup, pushing the limit. The couple calls a week before the wedding and says it is postponed by a month but they can still only pick it up at 7 pm.
    To keep it simple, the Christian bakery closes at 6 on Saturday, so they are not an option in any way.
    Expose the D.C. monster for what it is
    Al Franken / Jill Stein 2020.


  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary m View Post
    And for the go to the head of the class award...

    The baker agrees to make the cake for an September wedding for a 7 pm pickup, pushing the limit. The couple calls a week before the wedding and says it is postponed by a month but they can still only pick it up at 7 pm.
    To keep it simple, the Christian bakery closes at 6 on Saturday, so they are not an option in any way.
    You're deliberately confusing practical issues with issues of principle. The Talmud and the Church Fathers have much to say on these very issues and they outlined them hundreds of years ago. Even Muslims have a voice on this as do Hindus and various Buddhists.

    Nice try.

    Not quite knowledgeable enough to play with the big dogs on this issue. Woof!

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    You're deliberately confusing practical issues with issues of principle. The Talmud and the Church Fathers have much to say on these very issues and they outlined them hundreds of years ago. Even Muslims have a voice on this as do Hindus and various Buddhists.

    Nice try.

    Not quite knowledgeable enough to play with the big dogs on this issue. Woof!
    Why, yes I am. It is amazing how many times those paths cross especially in the Courts. Woof, woof.
    Expose the D.C. monster for what it is
    Al Franken / Jill Stein 2020.


  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary m View Post
    Why, yes I am. It is amazing how many times those paths cross especially in the Courts. Woof, woof.
    Yes, they do and bad dogs go the kennels.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Jingo View Post
    Fine. Replace "black people" with "Christians."

    Not that I agree with your position that attraction is a choice.
    No, but religion is.
    No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This offer VALID in 35 34 33 32 31 26 20 17 15 14 13 ALL 50 states.

    The new 13 original states to stand up for freedom: CA, CT, IA, MA, DE, MN, NH, NY, RI, VT, ME, MD, NJ (plus DC).

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gary m View Post
    I will agree with you to a point. Chapter C Corporations, LLC's, and many others are as you claim. Certain sole proprietorships, DBA's and family held businesses are less so.
    Not sure if you have ever tried to run or own your own business, but the tax laws and potential liabilities make it prohibitive to just open up even a one person operation, as mine is, without protecting and insulting yourself in some manner.

    The other thing is that employment laws will nail you. Hobby Lobby cannot put out an employment offer:
    "Christian heterosexuals only. Must believe that believe birth control is a mortal sin. No LGBTQWXYZ need apply."

    So I really don't have much sympathy for the Hobby Lobby's and Chik-Fil-A's of the business world. If it is that onerous, cash it out and close up shop. A Mom and Pop bakery, pizza parlor, photographer, and so on is a different story in my opinion.
    Although I disagree with her analysis, Ginger is in the right ballpark: it depends on the nature of the service. If you walk in and order the #3 wedding cake, no custom decoration, don't worry about the figurines on top, we have our own, and Joe Neighborly the friendly Scientologist baker happens to know (from 10 years of profiting from your excellent taste in baked goods) that you're gay, divorced, in a mixed-faith or racially mixed couple or anything else he finds objectionable on religious grounds, him baking and selling a #3 wedding cake to you does not require him to use his supposedly God-given talent to further or participate in a gay marriage. If you want him to attend and cut the cake, or procure same-sex figurines for the top, or do in some fancy writing, "May your marriage be blessed, Gary and Sam," he shouldn't have to do that.

    Although beyond my personal skills, which tend toward the Betty Crocker box cake end of the spectrum to the extent they exist at all, a standard wedding cake is not art, it's cooking.
    No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. This offer VALID in 35 34 33 32 31 26 20 17 15 14 13 ALL 50 states.

    The new 13 original states to stand up for freedom: CA, CT, IA, MA, DE, MN, NH, NY, RI, VT, ME, MD, NJ (plus DC).

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeste Chalfonte View Post

    Although beyond my personal skills, which tend toward the Betty Crocker box cake end of the spectrum to the extent they exist at all, a standard wedding cake is not art, it's cooking.
    Exactly. I've made wedding cakes and my only skill is being able to follow a recipe. The recipients didn't need or want more than that (thankfully). If they had, they would have had to shell out for somebody with actual talent.

    I have declined sewing commissions because I have zero interest in assisting with somebody's fetish. I would hate to think that I would either be compelled by the government to make somebody's pony fantasy come true or be forbidden by the government from sewing any fantasy costumes unless pony fantasies were accommodated. Pony people can take a trip to State Line Tack and buy a cheap Singer at Walmart.

    My whole thing is fantasy, reenactor stuff, and costuming. When I decline, I tell clients where to get it done if they are too dumb to already know this. You don't have a right to my talents in this area.

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  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80zephyr View Post
    Nope. Its simple really. If your right to be gay trumps my right of religion, who's rights take precedent?

    One is spelled out in the Constitution, the other isn't. Which should take precedent?

    Mark
    I'm late to this party but Mark, you chose to be Christian. Celeste was born gay. Which should take precedent?
    "What truly matters is not which party controls our government, but whether our government is controlled by the people. January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer."

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    Time will tell.

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