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Thread: Sexual Misconduct and Rape Thread.

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    Sexual Misconduct and Rape Thread.

    I thought it would be easier to make one thread encompassing all the emerging allegations against various entertainment persons and industry-related people as well as their supporters.

    I don't have a dog in this fight. My own experience of professional on-the-job sexual harassment has been dealt with elsewhere and it ended the issue for me. As a server, I was in fact willing to jolly along drunken or boorish men for tips. I'm no saint. They did not get to touch me and I normally never saw them again. They did not leverage me into better hours or get me more money aside from that one night/one table gig.

    I personally never had a job dangled in front of me that required a sexual pay-off. I had some offers that seemed too skeezy (non-professional) but I walked away despite needing the money and not being on assistance of any kind. It was just feeling - not an overture or quid pro quo, nothing actionable. That happens to everybody for various reasons.

    So this thread is for Weinsiein's crazy, Damon, Clooney, Woody Allen, Spacey, Polanski, Ratner, Hoffman, Tony Montana, and whoever else emerges as a predator or a victim or an enabler.

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    Good that you threw Polanski's name into the mix. He was celebrated in Hollywood for running from his crimes, and there hasn't been any peep that I've seen of people reassessing their views on his alleged crime. I wonder why he gets to enjoy the double standard?

    The question that keeps eating at me is this: Does it make me a bad person if I feel like some of these people been ostracized for things that happened a long, long time ago, things that probably should just be forgotten at this point? There are the Weinsteins and the Spaceys of this unfurling scandal that have allegedly been harassers and deviants for a long time, but a lot of other "me too" people are coming out and reporting just one little incident and it's ruining lives. I'm just not sure that some of these guys necessarily need to have their careers derailed over something that happened 20 or 30 years ago.

    Has it gone from weeding out the bad apples to a full blown witch hunt?
    I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Good that you threw Polanski's name into the mix. He was celebrated in Hollywood for running from his crimes, and there hasn't been any peep that I've seen of people reassessing their views on his alleged crime. I wonder why he gets to enjoy the double standard?

    The question that keeps eating at me is this: Does it make me a bad person if I feel like some of these people been ostracized for things that happened a long, long time ago, things that probably should just be forgotten at this point? There are the Weinsteins and the Spaceys of this unfurling scandal that have allegedly been harassers and deviants for a long time, but a lot of other "me too" people are coming out and reporting just one little incident and it's ruining lives. I'm just not sure that some of these guys necessarily need to have their careers derailed over something that happened 20 or 30 years ago.

    Has it gone from weeding out the bad apples to a full blown witch hunt?
    You aren't a bad person because you point out a few different sides to this issue.

    1. Yes, witch hunt. That's the apt description. Should any of these people have leveraged fame, access, or employment? No, that's wrong. Should any of the victims have made a decision to acquiesce to those demands? Nope.

    Do people do exactly that for various reasons that seem good at the time? You bet they do. You'd have be in a very sheltered life to not understand that people with power - gatekeepers - don't use their power to get stuff. Money, sex, acclaim, whatever.

    2. No, ass-grabbing in the 80s was not ass-grabbing as it is seen today. Neither the grabbers nor the grabbed saw the issue as it is framed today. We can discuss why might might be on various levels but the reality for most women in non-Hollywood jobs in that era is that they quit if they wouldn't put up with it. Or punched the guy (my solution).

    3. Echos of past eras will reveal real or imagined transgressions. Who knows?

    Is the 'casting couch' real in entertainment? It is. When you have a thousand equally talented or good-looking people competing for 3 slots, some will be willing to do anything which means all will be treated as whores (male or female). They will also be willing to exaggerate or manufacture their experiences. Or downplay them. Who can know?

    Again, as Celeste has pointed out - there was a reason normal people shunned actors and held them at large distance. It's one thing to see an entertainment. It's another to idolize and befriend or work for these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post

    The question that keeps eating at me is this: Does it make me a bad person if I feel like some of these people been ostracized for things that happened a long, long time ago, things that probably should just be forgotten at this point? There are the Weinsteins and the Spaceys of this unfurling scandal that have allegedly been harassers and deviants for a long time, but a lot of other "me too" people are coming out and reporting just one little incident and it's ruining lives. I'm just not sure that some of these guys necessarily need to have their careers derailed over something that happened 20 or 30 years ago.
    Agree, but would expand it to a lot of other subjects. See: demands that Confederate Civil War statues be pulled down and destroyed.

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    One of the big problems with this entire issue is that 2017 is not 30 or 40 years ago. Our culture, for better or worse, has very few enduring principles that involve personal conduct absent a police presence. What was boorish or annoying back then can become virtually or actually a criminal act today. Is it one?

    Some acts are and some are not but we've sort of lost the ability to distinguish between them because we don't use any principles to make sense of them or the principles change depending on almost anything (which kind of makes them not principles to begin with).

    There really is a big difference between forcible rape and unwanted sexual attention. There's a difference between tolerating a sexual offer to get a material or emotional benefit and being demonstrably punished for refusing an offer. There's a difference between how the gray areas are seen today and how they were seen decades ago.

    While I think we're seeing a witch hunt here, there's no clear, bright line between the witches and the hunters. They are essentially the same people with different outcomes in a lot of cases. I wouldn't be much surprised if some of the hunters are witches themselves but currently immune from criticism due to fortuitous factors.

    Which can change.

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    Two more big names are being accused of sexual harassment tonight: Comedian Louis C K and Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore.

    Louis C K has been the subject of some rather perverted allegations for years and the information that's coming out now pretty much dovetails with what's been hinted at in years past. I'm not the kind of guy who thinks a comedian — an act that pretty requires a person to be damaged to be successful, unless you're Jerry Clower — should be brought down over these kinds of stupid claims.

    Roy Moore, however…

    The Washington Post broke the story that Moore had "inappropriate relations" with a 14 year old girl when he was 32. Basically the only thing that's at issue here is Alabama's age of consent is 16; other women have stepped up to say they were also courted by Moore when they were 16-19 years old.

    Now, everyone here knows I despise Roy Moore with all my heart, and while I'm not surprised that a hardcore Christian fundamentalist like Moore would have a sexually deviant skeleton in his closet, I fail to see how this is anything other than a political hit at this point. Even if he did have a dalliance with a 14 year old girl decades ago (one which the girl's mother seemed to be OK with, I might add, hinting at the different attitudes of the time in the deep south) I don't see how that affects his ability to be a leader. Furthermore, none of the women making allegations actually had sexual relations with that man, Mister Moore.

    What's incredibly hilarious (or sad, depending) is this golden response from Alabama state auditor Jim Zeigler, defending Roy Moore:

    “Take the Bible. Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance. Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

    There ya go, the mindset of the far right Christians in Alabama.
    I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    Two more big names are being accused of sexual harassment tonight: Comedian Louis C K and Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore.

    Louis C K has been the subject of some rather perverted allegations for years and the information that's coming out now pretty much dovetails with what's been hinted at in years past. I'm not the kind of guy who thinks a comedian — an act that pretty requires a person to be damaged to be successful, unless you're Jerry Clower — should be brought down over these kinds of stupid claims.

    Roy Moore, however…

    The Washington Post broke the story that Moore had "inappropriate relations" with a 14 year old girl when he was 32. Basically the only thing that's at issue here is Alabama's age of consent is 16; other women have stepped up to say they were also courted by Moore when they were 16-19 years old.

    Now, everyone here knows I despise Roy Moore with all my heart, and while I'm not surprised that a hardcore Christian fundamentalist like Moore would have a sexually deviant skeleton in his closet, I fail to see how this is anything other than a political hit at this point. Even if he did have a dalliance with a 14 year old girl decades ago (one which the girl's mother seemed to be OK with, I might add, hinting at the different attitudes of the time in the deep south) I don't see how that affects his ability to be a leader. Furthermore, none of the women making allegations actually had sexual relations with that man, Mister Moore.
    I'm skeptical about the attack on Moore, likewise. You may be prepared to believe it ("I'm not surprised that a hardcore Christian fundamentalist like Moore would have a sexually deviant skeleton in his closet") but Moore, unlike Louis CK, does not have this long history of lurid rumors, even while he's had a very public, very controversial career which would clearly invite such rumors to surface.

    Plus the timing and the reactions are just too sweet. Democrat spinners including John McCain are all over this faster than the ink can dry on my LCD screen.

    It's too late to reprint the ballots. My take would be to take the allegations seriously, but if Mr. Moore goes ahead, elect him. He can resign and a replacement be appointed if necessary.

    This smells like another in a long line of late election surprises. I found the following Politico piece interesting. Written in October of 2016, on the heels of a NY Times (of course) "explosive report that Donald Trump had claimed a $915 million loss on his 1995 taxes," it looks back as far as 1840:

    15 October Surprises That Wreaked Havoc on Politics
    ...Political history is littered with the charred remains of such late-in the-election bombshells that scramble political calculus just as the stakes are at their highest. An “October surprise” can be happenstance or deliberately orchestrated; international (e.g. the outbreak of war) or domestic (e.g. a massive economic rally). Sometimes it’s personal, with a long-hidden skeleton spilling out from a candidate’s closet. It can save a political campaign as quickly as it can wreck one. And occasionally, it can even decide an election and set the course of the nation.

    With four weeks left in the October and one surprise down already, it’s quite possible that there will be shockers yet to come—with Russian hackers, Donald Trump’s penchant for controversy, Julian Assange on the prowl, Hillary Clinton’s missing emails and a precarious scenario in the Middle East, it is anyone’s guess.

    And when the next October surprise is revealed, it will join a rich history of last-minute revelations. Some wreaked havoc on elections and upended races, others reinforced the inevitable. Some were manufactured and expertly timed, others were the product of happenstance. But hearing them is enough to sober up even the most confident election observer: an election isn’t over until it’s over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    I thought it would be easier to make one thread encompassing all the emerging allegations against various entertainment persons and industry-related people as well as their supporters.

    I don't have a dog in this fight. My own experience of professional on-the-job sexual harassment has been dealt with elsewhere and it ended the issue for me. As a server, I was in fact willing to jolly along drunken or boorish men for tips. I'm no saint. They did not get to touch me and I normally never saw them again. They did not leverage me into better hours or get me more money aside from that one night/one table gig.

    I personally never had a job dangled in front of me that required a sexual pay-off. I had some offers that seemed too skeezy (non-professional) but I walked away despite needing the money and not being on assistance of any kind. It was just feeling - not an overture or quid pro quo, nothing actionable. That happens to everybody for various reasons.

    So this thread is for Weinsiein's crazy, Damon, Clooney, Woody Allen, Spacey, Polanski, Ratner, Hoffman, Tony Montana, and whoever else emerges as a predator or a victim or an enabler.

    I'm starting to get dizzy with all the accusations? Are this many men perverts? If so, keep your hands to yourself. If not, some women have some explaining to do. One thing I've learned about guys is that they often don't understand when they're going too far.
    I don't consider myself a leftist, but many do, so I'll do my part. All violence is bad. Antifa, BLM riots, etc. They suck and they're keeping people from discussing the issues too.

    Also, in the spirit of not being politically correct, I want to wish everybody an early Happy All Saints Day and an early Happy All Souls Day.

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    If You Refuse to Condemn Predators because of Politics, You’re Disgusting

    The allegations against Roy Moore are disgusting — and if you find yourself reluctant to say so because of your politics, then you’re pretty gross, too.

    The Leigh Corfman story, reported by the Washington Post, is about so much more than just some older guy having a relationship with some younger girl. That, of course, would be bad enough — many girls haven’t even had their f***ing periods at age 14 — but this is also about a man who abuses his power to prey on the powerless. It’s about a respected district attorney finding a girl in a vulnerable position (waiting with her mother outside of a child-support hearing) and relishing in the opportunity to take advantage of it. It’s a sick story that is all too common, and one that will continue to be common if we refuse to speak out against it.

    Now, I’ve had far too many people shouting, “Guilty until proven innocent!” at me over my comments on this issue, as if they’re too dumb to know that the second half of that phrase is “in a court of law.” Not to blow your mind here, but I’m actually not a court of law, and I’m allowed to believe whatever I want — and personally, I believe that Roy Moore was a predator with a penchant for teenage girls. No, not because I’m some p***y-hat-wearing snowflake (as eloquent as that argument is) but because of logic. As my colleague David French notes, there are a lot of reasons to believe these allegations: There are multiple accusers. These women didn’t come to the press seeking attention, they simply answered the questions when the press came to them. They have witnesses corroborating their stories. Finally, the woman with the most serious allegations, Leigh Corfman, voted for Donald Trump in 2016 — making the political-hit-job storyline laughable at best.

    Speaking of laughable, some of the defenses of these accusations have been nothing short of atrocious. I mean, we’ve got Alabama state auditor Jim Ziegler actually saying that it’s all good because Mary was a teen and Joseph was an older guy, and without them hooking up then we wouldn’t have Jesus. Yes — he’s not only using theology to defend pedophilia, but incorrectly using theology to defend pedophilia, seeing as the virgin birth is basically the whole reason for his religion in the first place.

    But it doesn’t stop there. We also have Joel Pollak of Breitbart swooping in to say that, like, only one of Moore’s accusers was 14 and that we shouldn’t even be talking about the girls who were 16 and 18. First of all, if your defense of a pedophile is actually “But he only molested one kid!” then I’d say it’s pretty clear you need to take a long, hard look at yourself in the mirror and wonder why the sight of yourself doesn’t make you start throwing up. Second, one of these older teen accusers told the Washington Post that she was only 14 when Moore initially approached her, while she was working as a Santa’s helper at the mall. Not only is that vile, but it’s also very relevant.

    These absurd defenses are certainly the things that stick out the most, but these people are not the only ones who are bothering me. I’m also bothered by the silence — especially coming from the people who rushed to their keyboards to condemn “Hollywood rapist libtard” Kevin Spacey immediately after the Anthony Rapp allegations, allegations that are nearly identical to the ones that Corfman made against Moore. It’s not that these people only care about victims if the abuser is a liberal, it’s that they don’t really care about victims at all. For them, the abused are nothing more than political pawns to further a partisan agenda. It’s sick, it’s disgusting, and it must stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I'm starting to get dizzy with all the accusations? Are this many men perverts? If so, keep your hands to yourself. If not, some women have some explaining to do. One thing I've learned about guys is that they often don't understand when they're going too far.
    That's one thing most women learn that's also part of this mess. Awkward or overly optimistic guys (or gals) are lumped in with people who have a long, long pattern of leveraging access or opportunity for transactional sex and those people are being lumped in with rapists who would cheerfully beat a victim into submission.

    Sex or the hope of it is common to all three but all three issues aren't the same. It would be a sheltered woman who hasn't had the experience of a date being being too forward, too soon - especially high school or college-aged dates. That's over optimism. It might have actually worked a few times so the guy thinks it's a winning formula with everybody.

    Some people are just tragically socially awkward. I've worked with a subset of massively smart guys who had very limited social contact with women. "So, after we finish the diagnostics do you want to go to my place and have sex?" Actual convo.

    These kinds of things are annoying but not threatening and they aren't characteristic of most guys.

    We need to sort this out using that much valued "nuance".

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